FIGHT AGAINST IGNORANCE

THIS WAS THE ENTIRE POST BY JIHADWATCH....IT HAS NOT BEEN EDITED IN ANYWAY. I HAVE EVEN LEFT WHAT I FELT WERE IGNORANT COMMENTS BY SOME POSTERS.

I ALSO INVITE JIHADWATCH TO CONTINUE THIS DEBATE IF HE WISHES TO.

After the excellent BBC's Panorama Programme " A Question of Leadership" which identified the Double Standards of the Muslim Council of Britain it brings into question the Governments dealing with these hypocritical so called leaders.
These people have ingratiated themselves into our society with the sole aim of establishing an Islamic culture which will sweep away our secular rights and freedoms.
They constantly abuse our sense of fair play crying "racism and zionist plots" when confronted with questions they would rather not answer.
Attacking our established institutions and indigenous population on all fronts political and cultural while at the same time pretending to be moderates who wish to integrate into British society.
Welcome to the world of British Jihadists .....who will lie , misdirect and disrupt our society in anyway they can all in the name of Islam.
I for one have had enough of this HYPOCRISY and I am sure the majority of the British population hold a similar view.
Time to change the "rules of the game" quoted Tony Blair ...oh really Ill believe it when I see it in real life. More like lets spend several million of our taxpayers money allowing these purveyors of hate and deceit legal aid to challenge our right to expel them form OUR Country.
Wake up Britain and lets have a public discussion to include all ethnic groups who really do fit in and contribute to the UK , happy in the fact that they will be part of the great British society which is mature and wise enough to encourage all who wish to live in a peacefull and democratic way.
Islam on the other hand has a long history of being intolerant of other religions , over the next few posts lets look at what the Koran and Mohammmed really says about the people s of the book and the underlying fact that all Muslims who are true must perform Jihad.
It is not an option ! it is a core tenant of Islamic belief .
The MCB condemned the Train Bombings in public and at the same time represents and condones radical groups within its umbrella.
Here is the the number one hypocrite Sir Iqbal Sacranie in action ,
HE PAYS RESPECT TO THE TERRORIST SHEIK YASSIN ideological chief of HAMAS and the MCB whom he represents hails him as "the renowned Islamic scholar" this is the true face of Sacranie .....playing moderate leader and at the same time glorifying a terrorist by paying his respects at a memorial service. Is this a man who should be in discussion with our Prime minister......? Is this a man who we wish to represent the moderate face of Islam .....god help us if we do
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graemephillipsuk [Member]
http://http://perspicacitycorruption.blog.co.uk
23/08/05 @ 13:24
have you been reading the daily mail at all?
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graemephillipsuk [Member]
http://http://perspicacitycorruption.blog.co.uk
23/08/05 @ 13:52
ha hah you are going to get a lot of comments now...l you devils advocate you...

I agree with your words "Islam on the other hand has a long history of being intolerant of other religions" they are indeed very......

check out my friends list, especially "POLONY" her blog is http://chilli.blog.co.uk/main/

i've had a few rants with her on this very subject... drop her a line tell her I sent you...

keep posting I love arguments like this....

peace from PerspicacityCorruption
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CasaB [Member]
23/08/05 @ 14:20
Enter Gobbo George Galloway!
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theslothuk [Member]
23/08/05 @ 14:42
Give em all a parachute and get the RAF to fly em off to wherever their closest foreign relative is from says I.

See how much right they get to free speech in I dunno, Iran or whatever. Jumped up bloody tourists. We need to start spying on cricket matches.

Whatever so called "British" person cheers for India or Pakistan when they're beating England, then goes snivelling asking Uncle Gorden for their next Giro payment (moaning on the way cos we won't build them another frigging mosque) gets a one way parachute to the 3rd world nation of their choice.
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InbredSheepman [Member]
23/08/05 @ 14:55
You only have to go to Cheetham Hill in Manchester to see how far British integration goes in this country. It is like stepping into
another world. Have you noticed the women who walk around in the burkhas with nothing on show apart from a little slit for their eyes. It is not the older generation that does this but rather the younger generation. Apparantly the older generation do not understand why the younger ones like to dress this way. This is not speculative but well informed as the missus (shes white British) works in a school for Bangledeshis/Pakistanis/Indian {got to label them correctly } The parents are the worst
as they have no respect for women, and really have a low down hate for her as she puts them in their place. One story she told me about was a mother came for her child wearing said
burkha type clothing, but she did not recognise who it was. So being a strict school teacher said to make her face visible so she knew who it was. Said woman refused so she did not let the child go home until husband arrived. He ranted and raved, but how would he feel if
little child did not come home one day, and it turns out SOMEONE picked her up, when asked for a description of who {here it comes..} dunno but she looked like a ninja....
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Murray [Member]
25/08/05 @ 09:04
'He who murders a man murders the whole of humanity, he who saves a man, saves the whole of humanity' The koran

How many muslims do you actually know? How many times have you been inside a mosque? It deeply saddens me to come across this bigotted ill informed drivel. What you have is a blinkered hate filled view fed by a right wing government serving media. You watched panorama on Sunday night and congratulations now your an expert!
Blairs post July 26th attack on human rights is a far greater threat to your freedom than any terrorist. We now live in an age were our government has the right to punish anyone who disagrees with it. Terrorism is the logical consquence of American and British "foreign policy" whose infinitely greater terrorism we need to recognise, and debate, as a matter of urgency. 85% of the British public believe the London bombings 'had something to do with Iraq', Yet to openly say this under new draconian measures is to risk being accussed of treason. Does this make you feel safer?
Your right, there is very little hope at the moment, especailly with the kind of ill informed hatred your spreading. Please wake up
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Trixta [Member]
25/08/05 @ 10:40
Let me start this of by saying I am a practisicing Muslim. I find it very interesting reading your blog, you have presented what seems to you, as a good arguement againt Islam and Muslims, when there has been no real evidence presented....Lets have a look at a few things.

Let me quote you here, and then reply as best I can.

'Islam on the other hand has a long history of being intolerant of other religions '

My Answer : You obviously have no knowledge of the Spanish Inquisition, and when the jews were being persecuted they fled to ..YES a Muslim nations which gave them refuge and protection.

Do you realise that before the third Caliph conquesred Jerusalam, the Christians had expelled all the Jews ? And when Umar Bin Khattab RA conquered, he allowed the Jews back in ?

The largest Muslim populations are in Malaysia and Indonesia....please tell me how many armies invaded these countries..?? Whereas Muslims also ruled over India for 800 years, and we still only have 10-20% muslim population there ??

'You only have to go to Cheetham Hill in Manchester to see how far British integration goes in this country. It is like stepping into
another world. Have you noticed the women who walk around in the burkhas with nothing on show apart from a little slit for their eyes'

My response :

Taliban were criticised and even bombed because they forced women to wear a certain clothing, and enforced rules againt the will of people (which I was against as well). France bans the hijab, and it seem like your calling for an end to burkha....whats the difference between Taliban and western stance ?

Also you have quoted people crying out racism and zionist plot ? Yes indeed this is what the papers will tell you, but if you have actually bothered to get to know someone like myself you would have found, I am very critical of what the Muslims have done to represent themselves in an appropriate way....

I am not trying to fight with anyone here, and I respect the fact we have the right to say what we want, but I feel we need to be a bit more responsible. For me to label all British people war mongerers would be unfair to the people who dont support war, I understand the British opinion is not ONE opinion, and I need you to understand that the Muslim opinion is not ONE opinion.

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JihadTruths [Member]
25/08/05 @ 11:25
Thanks for at least a debetable reply.

Yes I am very aware of all the atrocities comitted in the name of Christianity but at least they have recognised this fact and moved on from the Dark ages.

The fact is we are in Modern day Britain and we hold all members of society as equal in rights of law and freedom to practice a religion of choice.

There are stains of intolerance on both sides ??

However the fact still remains that non-muslims living in Islamic cultures have fewer rights than Muslims. This is as correct today as it was centuries ago....you have
to allow an equal field for all cultures before we can debate openly and honestly
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Trixta [Member]
25/08/05 @ 12:28
I agree with you totally when you state that,

' However the fact still remains that non-muslims living in Islamic cultures have fewer rights than Muslims. This is as correct today

Altho I disgaree with :

as it was centuries ago....you have '

The West offers alot more freedoms to Muslims, than Muslim countries do to Westerners, this is not something I am denying. And yes we like Christians have periods of darkness in our past....for instance there were rulers during the Ummayad and Abbasid times that were ruthless and oppressive, but there was also rulers of that dynasty that helped ressurect places of worship for the minority groups. There were Jews and Christians in the Muslim caliphates that contributed immensley and worked with Muslims to make amazing advancements in Medicine and technology. Most of the stars still hold there arabic names. The University in Undulusia Spain where Westerners used to goto study, after the time of Tariq Bin Zayad, was the best at that time. The first University to be erected was the sankoori University in timbuktoo by Muslim Scholars, So to paint Muslim history as all doom and gloom is unfair.

My second point is....

The actions of students should in noway taint our original teachings, since the students of a teaching do not always represent what has been taught. Yes there are people who have deviated from the original teachings, and yes they have caused problems. But you need to stop blaming the islamic religion for there actions, and holding a community accountable for the actions of a few.
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JihadTruths [Member]
25/08/05 @ 13:24
Thanks for an informed reply,

The trouble (imo) about the original teachings is., there can be no Debate
or Modernising of the Koran....accordingly the students mentioned above where behaving as true Muslims when they carried out that barbaric act in defence of it.

It was and is sanctioned by your leaders and most of all by the words of the Prophet Mohammed.
Therefore unless this is changed by all....Islam is responsible in the broadest sense ! ??

History is always open to dispute , of more concern is the way a culture changes and adopts as it learns its lessons from the past.

Today we face the challenge of how we are going to live together in Britain....this means that we must
have honesty and debate. Not at all possible in the majority of Islamic cultures/countries that exist today.

Why would you behave differently in the UK when the central tenet of Islam is one world united in Islam ??

Seems that there is double standards at play here ....your pressure groups demand full and equal rights here in Britain and I agree , but neglect to honour the responsibilities
That goes with this. I am sure that a vast number of Muslims in Britain are horrified at the ongoing events and indeed some of your leading Muslims state this openly and then attend memorial services in honour of terrorists condemned by peace loving
Peoples of all persuasions with the exception of your own !

From here it looks hypocritical ….to state one condemns terror/radicalism and then openly support these radicals with ones actions …….
To allow subversive groups to be within ones umbrella does indeed look like lip service to these principles we hold dear…
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Murray [Member]
25/08/05 @ 12:30
Hey Mr Jihad,

you didn't answer any of my questions...

reply .....can you read ?? JT
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Murray [Member]
25/08/05 @ 13:42
Pardon Me, Sorry, I missed your reply. Scary stuff. And must say I'm incredibly grateful for you offering to defend my rights.

'Fight and Slay the Pagans'. I've seen this one wheeled out a few times by your lot.
Time for a history lesson
and to put this quote into
correct context. You obviously
were'nt paying attention during your '3 year Islamic education'
I should like to point out
that this Ayah was revealed at a time of war and great persecution during the battle Badr and after the breaking of the treaty of Hudabiyah. You fail to mention Islamic rules of engagement which clearly state 'no killing of women and children and no destruction of vegetation'. Shame the same can't be said for our rules of engagement regarding Iraq and Afghanistan. You also make a fatal
error when using the example of the Egyptian students as a critique of Islam. Individual actions don't speak for a religion.
Are teachings of Christ warped because of US Christian fundamentalists who murder abortion
doctors? And as for Iran as the shinning example of an evil Islamic state. Well I'm afraid thats just simply wrong. Iran is run by a Shi'ite Iman, and as I'm sure you'll already know the Shi'ite's represent less than 10% of the muslim world population. Please try to be a little less
patronising than your previous reply.
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Reply :et me state for the record Murray

One of my lot ...a generality if ever
and an insult as I am not a member of any lot ..political or religious.

To state about the history lesson...

the surah mentioned sepercedes all before so your history lesson is a mute point....
I am only reiterating what is an accepted fact among those that profess to represent Islam.
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Trixta [Member]
25/08/05 @ 13:43
You Quote :

' The trouble (imo) about the original teachings is., there can be no Debate
or Modernising of the Koran.'

My response :

Yes and there never will be which is the unique aspect of the Islamic religion, rather there needs to be debate about its understanding, because it is clear to me at this stage that there is weakness in that area amongst Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

Second part of your reply:

....accordingly the students mentioned above where behaving as true Muslims when they carried out that barbaric act in defence of it.

My response :

How can you say this ? what evidence do you have ? Let me refute that in a few sentences :
(First of all there are rules of engagement within Islam, that does not allow for vigilante violence, women, children and non-combatents are not valid targets, so for you to say they were true adherents of Islam is completely and utterley false.)
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Trixta [Member]
25/08/05 @ 14:49
As a muslim, JW is wrong in saying it cancels out other verses. I have had alot of interaction with Scholars, and this is certainly not the case. I would put your conclusion down to your own lack of understanding.
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Comment from: JihadTruths [Member]
Wasnt my conclusion ...but based on your scholars acceptance of the principle of Naskh.
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Please give me names of extablished scholars of Islam who have accepted this as a practice, and please tell how they have said it needs to be practisced, because you mentioned something about a Scholar from the most prestigious islamic universities endorsing it ? Al-Azhar university I presume ? Please clarify and present evidence......

Comments are closed for this post.
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THIS BLOG IS STILL OPEN THE ABOVE COMMENTS WERE DELETED AND THE BLOG WAS CLOSED BY JW AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME

Don't get me wrong on the comment I made on his blog, I have nothing against other religions/people. The point I was making was about the clothing and how it seems to be the younger people who seem to want to carry on the tradition. I do agree that in schools there should be a common dress code, that way everyone is forced to be equal (please do not jump down on me about faith and havng to wear certain clothes). I am aware that most faiths have different attitudes when it comes to dressing.

I feel when we are entering the 21st century there should be more tolerences, but there are the select few who would rather live in the past (romantic or otherwise).

My comments may be sometimes jocular but I try not to be condescending to anyone. Plus the comment I made about the mens attitude to women is valid, my wife see's this first hand with some of the school childrens families.

Anyway, glad someone is taking a stance against ill-informed people (including me sometimes).

InbredSheepman

Welcome Sheepman ....

It is important to distinguish between Normative Islam and Descriptive Islam. Descriptive being what is practisced by the muslim community and Normative being what SHOULD be practisced by the community. There is a huge difference, and I made this point a number of times yesterday, to no avail.

Peoples actions are not always a reflection of Islams teachings, and it is unfair to attribute those wrong actions of individuals to the teachings of Islam.

I am not disagreeing with your comments about your wifes first hand experinces, but what I am saying is there could be a number of reasons why they behave in such a way, and one of those reasons is not there religious teachings.

Let me give you an example:

Hindus practisced, and in some remote parts of India still practice, the tradition of 'Sati Mata'. This is a tradition which dates back before the British Raj, in which the bride is burnt alive when her husband dies, beliveing she will comeback as a goddess. Now the Hindu scriptures in noway sanction this, but rather it is was/is a brutal tradition. Now who do you blame for this ? Hinduism ? or do you blame its deviant followers ?

In India millions of hindus kill there baby daughters at birth, seeing them as a burden. Who do you blame ? Hinduism or its devian followers ?

It is important to distinguish between the two, if you dont know ask someone, or better yet do your own research.

wow, the level of honesty from all sides blew me away. Always a huge topic for debate, which is great, get a bit concerned by the almost Enoch Powell style (slightly different times, similar argument) comments from some, but hey, each to their own. Have to agree with sheepman when he says "....I feel when we are entering the 21st century there should be more tolerances, but there are the select few who would rather live in the past (romantic or otherwise)."
That includes a select few from every belief system &culture, I feel.

I think complete openness and honesty is the only way to deal with these issues. There must be a willingness for all sides to listen to each other, otherwise discourse becomes conflict and hate mongering wins through. It genuinely saddens me to see the divisions increasing in britain today, over race and religion. Ignorance and misinformation only serves to feed it, as people naturally fear and distrust what they don't know.
On a brighter note, I'm very much looking forward to rest of my weekend, movies tonight then its the carnival for two days!

its quite amazing that people actually think that openness and honesty should be the logical alternatives when speaking on an issue, is this not the way...? the only thing that seems to control mindflow; is fear. Fear breeds division, fear also breeds hatred and fear is an easy emotion to rise in people next to anger. How is this fear brought about? By ignorance through misinformation. I do not believe that people naturally dear and distrust what they dont know, it may be the fact that this distrist is promoted to us and therefore becomes instilled as a natural reaction. The way to keep us tame in thought and action is through consumerism. This fuels the advertisements which in turn fuel the money going into TV media, who rely on this money to show more fillers (actual TV shows) before content (advertisements) come before us, and then we only watch what is commercially viable. The BBC sometimes differ from this, to which I am grateful to live in a less commercial society in one espect but must balance that against the price of coffee.....

Just a thought.....

peace from PerspicacityCorruption

yep, it should really go without saying that honesty should be the way when speaking on an issue - knowing the facts through openness from all sides on an issue means less fear. Unless, as in the case last night, a friend asks if you think she has put weight on - then the only alternative is to lie through your teeth.......sorry, I'm trivialising a debate here, but it's the weekend. ;-)

Interesting comments.....yes 'ideally' honesty should be the pre text, but everyone has there own ideas of what honesty and the truth is. people like Jihadwatch will tell you Islam is in the process of taking over Britian (something I hear alot), whilst backing it up with feeble arguements, maybe its a malicious attempt to mislead people and hide what the truth is, or maybe he genuinley belives this to be the truth, and easily misguiding people, who would rather have the 'facts' told to them, whereas someone like myself will tell you otherwise. The problem is the world is no longer divided into 'Good' and 'Evil', had it been the case we could have just picked sides. But the problem is everyone defines what they belive in as the good side and right side, so going by this logic if all the good people, killed all the bad people there would be no people left. It is important to understand that through logical and rational arguementation backed up with facts and evidence the people who mislead can be exposed.

I think the only thing that has stood in the way when i have been involved in conversations with someone who has an opposite view point is ignorance and a refusal to accept evidence against there arguements. A classic example is posted above.

(Above example of good and evil was taken from a lecture by Hamza Yusuf Hanson)

I found this website, quite interesting. As a Muslim I think its also unfair to paint all the Jews with one brush and label them Zionist extremists, this site will most definetley show the diversity that exists within the Jewish community.

http://www.nkusa.org/

Blog title has been changed to a more fitting title.

This blogging isnt as exciting as I thought it would be.

Invasion Of Kuwait
Invasion Of Iraq
September the 11th
Invasion Of Afghanistan
Invasion Of Iraq (on going mayhem)
Bali Bombings
London Bombings
Beslan Seige
Russina incusrions into Chechnya
Gujarat riots
Israeli Heavy Handedness in Palestine
Suicide Bombings in Israel
Tsunami disaster
New Orleans Hurricane

I guarantee because of our human nature, mixed with what we read in the papers and see on TV, each person who reads the above will have a different reaction to each one of those tragedies, which I think is the opitomy of the sad state we are in. The common factor in all of the above is that all the dead were INNOCENT people, yet why do we feel more sympathy towards a certain group, and in some cases almost not care about the others? The answer is, we are still locked in a tribalistic mentality of them and us, we feel more sympathy towards our 'own kind'. YET,

All human life was made to be equal, and all innocent loss of life should be strike up the same emotion, yet it doesnt.

Please reflect on this......To recognise your error is the first step you can take, to rectify a problem which is deeply rooted within us.

Beslan Atrocity

I agree with you. Any injustice should be condemned in the same emphatic way. It is indeed mind numbing the way there is silence in the world media over extra-judicial executions, kidnappings, subjugation and occupation of the Chechans by the Russian government over all these years. To add insult to injury the only thing that people seem to know about Chechens is with reference to the Beslan school atrocity. I totally condemn the use of violence especially against non-combatants like in Beslan. However we need to bring justice to the Chechens who have been brutalised by the Czars, Stalins and Putins for the last 400 years.

The hunting season maybe some months away but that boys from down south have got there rifles out and ready to start shooting.

**my comments**
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Crackdown in fearful New Orleans

Victims' desperation
US troops, armed with a shoot-to-kill policy, are being sent to New Orleans to quell growing lawlessness, four days after Hurricane Katrina hit.

Anarchy has spread through the city, where thousands of people are stranded with no food or water, in increasing desperation and fear.

Thousands have been evacuated, many to Houston, but many others remain.

President Bush, who is to visit the disaster zone, has requested $10.5bn (£5.7bn) emergency funds from Congress.

*sorry, what was the defence budget***

Congress is expected to approve the aid - described by the White House as a "stopgap measure" - quickly, in order to fund rescue and relief efforts in coming weeks.

'Locked and loaded'

Announcing the deployment of 300 "battle-tested" National Guardsmen to New Orleans from Iraq, Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said the men were carrying deadly weapons and were ready to use them.

'People were raped in the Superdome. People were killed in there. We had multiple riots'

New Orleans police officer

Accounts of flood chaos

"They have M-16s and are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and I expect they will."
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To read full article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4207202.stm
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If you have been watching the news and seeing pictures in the newspapers, the worst affected people seem to be the poor black and hispanics etc. Since 1 million people who could leave fled, did so. These were people that did not have the resources to get out or were possibly unaware of the level of danger that they were faced with, one has to ask what the US Governement did to get these people out. Its ironic that there is now a shoot to kill policy in place to tackle the lawlessness that is taking place, which is the direct result of the incompetance displayed by thy US who had no procedure or systems in place to tackle this problem when it was first known to them.

Does the American government not realise the alot of the looters maybe mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters of people trying to find clean water and food for there families, out of severe desperation ? Yes there is no denying there will be oppotunists amongst them, but Govt needs to be a bit more responsible, before issuing a license to kill.

http://64.4.61.250/cgi-bin/getmsg/looting%2egif?&msg=2EC52A07-06C7-4486-8D13-F5F1EAA43948&start=0&len=401982&mimepart=3&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&b=aae56edc58dd1bed905e0970a1f9b7b2&disk=10.1.106.202_d357&login=pathan6&domain=hotmail%2ecom&_lang=EN&country=US&SafeRedirect=%26hm___ts%3d1125914822%26hm___ha%3d53729a1caf048afc2327ac6bd2868da5

Amazing how the news reads for the same situation.